Today I am going to share the written transcript of the first segment of a three-part interview with Terry Virgo and his wife, Wendy at the New Word Alive Conference in North Wales. The video of that segment can be seen here. I have also previously interviewed Terry here.

In this segment I ask them to tell us a little bit about what they do, what is Newfrontiers, and how Terry came to speak at the New Word Alive Conference this year.


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Adrian
Hi. I’m Adrian Warnock. I blog over at adrianwarnock.com and I’m part of the leadership team at Jubilee Church in London. I’m here at New Word Alive in North Wales, and am actually in Terry and Wendy Virgo’s chalet. Terry and Wendy very kindly agreed to join us for a short interview about the conference and whatever else we decide to talk about, I guess. So, thanks for joining us, Terry and Wendy.

Terry
Thanks, Adrian. Good to see you.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s great that you were able to find some time to chat with us, and to just be here at this conference. I just wonder, how have you found the conference so far?

Terry
Well, we’ve really enjoyed the opportunity for fellowship with a number of people we wouldn’t normally see. First of all, I’ve never met Don Carson, and it’s been magnificent to listen to him, and John Piper—inspiring again. It’s good to make new friends—people whose names I’ve known, like Wallace Benn. This is the first time I’ve got to meet him. It’s been an excellent time. Thank you.

Adrian
Good, thanks. And what about you, Wendy?

Wendy
Yes. I wasn’t quite sure what I was coming to, but I was relieved to find it is set in an absolutely beautiful location. And also I have so enjoyed especially Don Carson’s and John Piper’s messages. I’ve really been blown away by their passionate delivery of theology.

Adrian
Yeah, it’s been great, hasn’t it? So, Terry, there will be a few people watching this [and reading it] who perhaps won't know who you are. I mean, I find that amazing; you probably don’t find that amazing. But people do watch this in the States, and also some other places. I wonder if you could, in your own words really, talk a little bit about what it is you do with your life when you’re not in a chalet in Wales.

Terry
Yes, which is pretty rare! I’m based in Brighton on the south coast of England, and I’m an elder of a church there called Church of Christ the King. From there, I travel out with Newfrontiers, which is a group of churches that works in about 40 nations now. In the UK we have about 220 churches, and then globally we’re pressing on towards 600 churches. So I travel a lot. Later this month we’ll be in Russia at a pastors and wives conference, and then we’ll be in the States in May and June, and we’ll be in France with our pastors and wives there from the Newfrontiers churches. So we travel quite a lot.

Adrian
You say “we.” Is that the two of you, or just you, or sometimes a mixture of both?

Terry
We have five children who are all now married and have left home. And we often travel together now.

Adrian
Oh, that's the "we."

Wendy
Yes.

Adrian
So what does Wendy get up to, then, when she’s not holding your bags? Well, I hope he carries your bags Wendy!

Wendy
Yes, traveling does take up a lot of our time, but when I’m at home I love to be involved in things like Alpha Courses, although increasingly I’m not able to do that. But I do write for various Bible notes such as TWR and Day By Day, the Bible Reading Fellowship, Scripture Union obviously for as well. I speak at ladies’ days around the country, and I’m also engaged in writing a book at the moment.

Adrian
That’s very interesting. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Or are you sworn to secrecy on that?

Wendy
Well, yes, perhaps it is a little bit premature, but it’s about the effect that women can have in a Church for good or bad.

Adrian
Very good. That sounds really interesting. I look forward to reading that, no doubt, sometime in the future. Now you’re going to have to finish it as you’ve said it online.

Wendy
I know.

Adrian
(Laughing) There you go! So, obviously both of you are incredibly busy, traveling an awful lot, all around the place, looking after all these churches. What made you decide to accept the invitation to come here? I know you’ve been involved with UCCF for quite awhile as well, haven’t you? Is it some kind of advisory board you’re on with them, or . . .

Terry
Yes. The invitation came from UCCF. I’ve made a very good friend in Richard Cunningham. He’s a fine guy. I like him. He asked me to be involved with UCCF, and then having agreed to that, I was then invited to speak at their Leaders Forum a year or two back, and had a very happy time working through Romans and then leading Bible studies. And I’ve enjoyed the fellowship. I’m so glad that they have embraced us. We come from a charismatic perspective. Our church life is charismatic. UCCF has not been famously charismatic, but they’re making a statement of openness, and I’ve been received very warmly, both in their Forum, which I’m due to speak at again next year (2009), and then here as well. And so it’s an interesting coming together of people who love Scripture, love doctrine, love the truth of God. And it’s great to have Stuart Townend here, and Phatfish, who come from my home church. We're very proud of them. Stuart’s written some magnificant songs, as have Phatfish, and I know they are welcomed around the world. It’s great to be together with them here as well. So we’ve enjoyed that.

Adrian
Yeah, and we’re singing the same songs as well, aren’t we? It’s interesting. Those divisions, at least in terms of songs, just don’t seem to be there anymore, really, you know?

Terry
I was fascinated when I was invited to speak at the Keswick Convention, probably three years ago now, and again I felt as the worship took place before I spoke, I think three-quarters of the songs we sang had been written by people in my home church. I felt remarkably . . .

Adrian
What is it about the sea water down there? You guys seem to keep producing singers, don’t you?

Terry
Yes, we have some great songwriters . . .

Adrian
I guess that church is a sort of resource church, really, isn’t it? I guess that would be one way of describing it in terms of—you have all kinds of different people going out and serving in various different way from there, haven’t you?

Terry
I think David Fellingham originally was with us from the beginning when we started our church. We started with 38 people back in about 1980, and David joined us quite early on with tremendous musical skills and devotion to God. He started writing songs that became very famous. And then others joined us like Stuart Townend, Paul Oakley, then his other son, Nathan Fellingham, came through writing songs. Kate Simmonds. More recently Simon Brading. In fact, we’re starting a worship school again this coming autumn, and we trust people will want to book in and come for the monthly program that will take place through this coming year.

Adrian
That’s great. So I mean, coming here, I guess we’re joining hands with people who perhaps years ago we'd never have imagined we'd be joining hands with. I mean, would that be a fair way of describing it?

Terry
Yes, it’s true. For me, when I was first converted from a completely non-Christian background, my sister had joined All Souls Langham Place, and I first responded to the gospel publically there. So I met John Stott on that day. So my roots go back to an evangelical context. And while I was at college, I listened to Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. So one feels so at home with these truths. Then I had an experience of the Holy Spirit, opening up the gifts of the Spirit in our church life. Which means we're certainly not cessationists. We believe in the presence and the power of God. We’ve never abandoned these great evangelical truths which we greatly love and have always preached during this time of enjoying the presence of the Spirit as well—seeing people being healed, and prophecies, and things of that order. So that we can find a very happy combination of those things.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that people are sort of almost feeling that this is a new thing—this combination of reformed and charismatic. I guess it’s newly prominent. It’s something that’s been around, I guess what you’re saying, all along. Is that right?

Terry
Well, I think I’ve always held that position going back many years. Joel Edwards, who has been the Evangelical Alliance leader for some years, said he felt that we at Newfrontiers in England were fairly unique for being famously charismatic and famously reformed theologically. He thought we were unusual. But we’re friends right across the board, and I’m very grateful for that.

Adrian
Good. Thanks.

To be continued . . .

As we drew to the close of the first segment of my interview with John Lanferman yesterday we began to speak about reformed charismatic churches. Today I begin by asking him if he believes there is a hunger for such churches in the USA. You can also download the audio of this interview.

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Adrian
Yeah, that’s so important, isn’t it? So as you look out over the nation, do you feel that there is a hunger in the US for these kind of churches, a desire to see them?

John
Absolutely. I think especially an emerging generation, the 20’s and 30’s generation, pretty much in the US left the church. But we’re seeing a lot of these people coming back into the church. In our own church, that would be the largest demographic. And these are young people who really have a value of the foundations of the past, historical Christian faith would be important to them, but also a mixture of what the culture has created—a desire to experience something in the Spirit. They’re not afraid of that. So you have this desire to be rooted in something that’s stable—historical Christian faith—but at the same time, wanting to experience something of God in the Spirit. And are not afraid of spiritual manifestations; in fact, they’re hungry for that. Hungry to experience the very real presence of God for themselves in a very tangible way.

Adrian
Yeah. It’s interesting because a lot of people are talking about that kind of resurgence of reformed faith in the US in the 20’s and 30’s [age group]. It’s interesting to hear you saying that a lot of those guys are also looking for something quite experiential.

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
I guess people like John Piper are probably a major part of that, aren’t they? Because the way he preaches—it’s all about knowing God, and [having] a kind of relationship with God, and valuing God, rather than just purely as an intellectual thing.

John
Yes, and he’s taken some fairly strong stands. He actually is not a cessationist. He actually does believe . . .

Adrian
Most people are really surprised when they hear that. What? John Piper is not a cessationist? You’re kidding!

John
That’s true. And he has huge influence in our nation among the evangelical community. I think his welcoming in of people like C. J. Mahaney, and even embracing guys like Mark Driscoll . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . and just to see what’s happening there encourages me quite a great deal.

One of the negative things that’s happening in the US as well—you have the emerging church. On one end of it you have a very orthodox guy like Mark Driscoll, and a bit colorful as well. (Adrian laughing) While on the other end you have people who have a greater degree of relevancy, so doctrine and theology is kind of fluid, and they want to adapt that to culture, and so that leads to heresy. And that’s a frightening thing. But there’s a wing of that emerging church that is very much moving in that direction as well, as you probably well know. That’s a frightening thing in the US because there’s quite a large following of that group as well.

Adrian
That’s right. And I think some of those historic doctrines are being questioned . . .

John
They are!

Adrian
. . . in a way that you’d be surprised at. But that’s not unique to the US either. As you know, we’ve had some issues over here with that, particularly with regard to the atonement and things like that. I mean, is the atonement such a big issue in the US as it is over here in the UK, would you say?

John
It’s not with mainline evangelical groups, but I think with the emerging church, the people who are on one side of that very much—that’s one of the questions. And even the desire to be culturally relevant and accepting of alternative life styles has led people to make an adjustment as to how they approach that. And they won’t make categorical statements any more. So they’re standing on sand rather than the solid rock of the Book. So I think that’s a concern as well. These guys are fairly media savvy, and it’s a subtle thing . . . to find a way into churches.

Adrian
I think that’ right. With the advent of the media and the Internet, well, I know this only two well. It’s possible for people to hit above their weight. I mean, Here am I — just some guy in a church in London whose blog is read all around the world. And I think that happening with a lot of people, and you can have influence, either for good or not good, far above, actually, what you are accomplishing on the ground in that sense. Or over what you feel you should have influence.

John
Yes, absolutely, that’s true.

Adrian
I think it is a bit concerning, isn’t it? How some people are causing us to drift away from truth.

John
The thing that’s concerning about it is that—not [only] are they gifted and charismatic, but in actuality, there’s the element of Christianity about them. So you’re dealing with something different than people who are totally secular. So it’s a subtle thing. A lot of people are not very scripturally astute. It’s easy to be pulled along in that train.

Adrian
Don’t you think that it’s quite interesting when you look [at it] historically? A lot of these ideas have been tried before, haven’t they?

John
Yes, they have. And the thing is, they always end up on a dead-end street. They don’t have a long cycle. They come around, but ultimately God is very protective of his Church. He is very zealous for it. And the church that’s rooted in biblical value and persuasion continues on. I’m very encouraged in America about the uptick in church planting. I don’t know if you want to talk about that or not . . .

Adrian
Yeah, church planting is great, yeah.

John
In the US, over the last two decades, there has been a deterioration in people who are committed to regular church attendance. It’s averaged a 10 per cent decline in each of the last ten years—so 20 per cent less are now involved in church activities, or even actually community activities, than before. But now, groups like Acts 29, and on a much, much smaller scale, but I like to say, Sovereign Grace, and Newfrontiers, and various other church planting movements, Global Net—these groups that are coming to the forefront planting churches, training people, are based on orthodox Christian faith with a real sense of mission. So missional churches are emerging among us, and many of them are growing, seeing lots of people saved. So I actually—while we have these rather alarming trends, I see much to be very excited about in the US.

Adrian
Yes, oh yes. Just for the sake of those out there—I know some people sitting out there are thinking, “What exactly is a missional church, John?” How would you define that?

John
A church that understands that it exists for the express purpose of carrying the gospel to the next door neighbor, to the person in the next block, to the person in the next city, state, and nation, and they exist for the purpose of being carriers of the gospel. So they are involved, not only in proclamation, but they are involved in changing the whole culture of a community. They would be people who would be involved in cross-cultural evangelism. They would be people who would be involved in changing the social justice—be involved in that ministry to the poor—so they have a desire to see the whole community that they are involved with, the towns they are involved with, changed and made into a kingdom community. It’s people who understand, “We do not exist for ourselves, but we exist for them.” So the way we spend our money. the way we staff our churches, the way our churches feel, the way they operate, have that outward appeal. And it’s a God-centered approach to humanity rather than an inward, “What about me and my needs?” It’s a man-centered approach.

Adrian
That’s very good. So that’s really very much what’s on your heart as you go across the nation, isn’t it? I guess that’s what you’re saying—to see those kinds of churches multiplied.

John
Absolutely—if we can get outstanding churches in each of these 100 large cities, and out from that, begin to reproduce ourselves. Because I’m fanatical on reproducing churches. We must not just plant churches, but we [want to] see churches that view themselves as reproducing churches, multiply themselves, raise up leaders, give themselves away, spread out in the communities and the nations beyond.

Adrian
It’s just so exciting to see what God is doing in a nation, but also what he’s doing around the world, and to be able to link up with that. I guess we’re back to the conference in a way. Because that’s what this is all about, isn’t it? Together on a Mission.

John
Yes, it is. And I think what’s interesting is how we help each other. The different nations, different men, bring different things into the pool. I’m receiving from others. I’m receiving from my friends in Africa, or my friends in India, and so it’s even the in-between times when we’re kind of sharing ideas back and forth and getting on board how we can assist one another. Because it’s just not about our own little patch. It’s us owning the world together. It’s us saying, “We want to see the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ grow and expand to all the nations of the world. So, I have just as much a vital interest in what’s happening in Africa, or what’s happening in Europe, as I would even in our own place. Because we have to own the whole vision of God. I do know that I have a particular responsibility for a sphere.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But God has called us to work together. I think that’s the joy of what’s happening here in this conference, and who we are in Newfrontiers as well.

Adrian
Yeah. And I guess when we gather together like this, significant words can come as well, that shape us really.

John
It’s true. I think it’s in the worship that God is speaking to us. It’s in the preaching as well. But also in prophetic words that come to us. And you can just see the impact that’s happening across the room . . .

Adrian
Yes!

John
. . . guys coming together and buzzing about this, and what God is saying. So it’s quite helpful actually.

Adrian
If my readers are sitting there in America somewhere thinking, “You know what?” This all sounds great. I’d love to be in a church like that.” How would they find out more?

John
Well, they can come to our website, of course. Just type into the search engine Newfrontiers USA, and there, of course, they can find us, and where our churches are located. Of course, I would welcome any contact there in St. Louis where we are based.

Adrian
Excellent. Do you run any conferences, or anything like that, there in the USA?

John
Yes, we do. We have an annual Leadership Conference that’s hosted by us there in St. Louis. But we have also moved out regionally. Originally we were just a small cluster of churches in Missouri, but now we have established cluster churches in New England, and we’ve moved into the Pacific Northwest, and now we’ve moved into the Southeast as well. So we’ve established regional events because we are a family of churches, just not a fraternity of leaders. So churches come together there for envisioning, and leadership events happen, as well as 20’s conferences, and events for teenagers. Just this next week, we’re gathering several hundred teenagers, not just to go to a camp and somehow be refreshed and go back all enthusiastic for a couple of weeks, but actually to be involved in a mission and social action. We’re going to go out into the streets. We’re going to get with children in the neighborhoods. We’re going to begin to work into that community. So we have lots of events by which we’re bringing people together. There’s something that can happen when a group of churches come together that simply cannot happen with a church on its own. And there is just a combined strength of coming together around the singleness of vision and purpose that not only helps with what we do together, but actually helps when people go back to their own churches. They’ve caught something, see? And they take it back with them. So we have several events like that. And men’s conferences and ladies conferences that are happening throughout the nation. So immediately when I go back, we will have a One Blaze event, which is the teen event, in St. Louis. And from there, I’ll leave the next week and go up to New England, and we’ll have a big family camp out there where we gather the churches. We bring in international speakers, as well as myself, and we’re envisioned.

Adrian
Great. Sounds great. It’s just so exciting to hear about what God’s doing over there in the States. Thank you so much for joining us, John. Is there anything else that you’d like to share with my readers before we close?

John
I’m very much enthused about what God is going to be doing in the US, and what he is doing now. I’m thrilled when I see the moving of his Spirit in more prononced ways, as well as the value of the Word. I’m particularly encouraged about missional churches that are sprining up all across our nation. So, I wouldn’t want to end here just with some of the other things we’ve talked about—alarming trends, etc. I’d like to says that I’m actually more encouraged today than I’ve ever been in my life in regard to what God’s doing in raising up his Church in the US.

Adrian
Excellent! Praise God for that. We wish you all the success in the future, John, and I look forward to hearing more about what goes on in the years to come when you’ve reached those 100 cities.

John
Yes, thank you, Adrian.

Adrian

Praise God. Thank you.

Next week the main Newfrontiers International conference of the year starts. To whet your appetite, I thought I'd share the transcript of an interview I did at Together On A Mission 2007 with John Lanferman. The audio for this interview is also available here.

John oversees a team of leaders who serve the churches in the Newfrontiers—USA family. His primary focus is leadership training, church planting, and supporting churches in the States. John and his wife, Linda, are a part of Jubilee Church in St. Louis, Missouri. His blog is at http://johnlanferman.blogspot.com/.

If you can't make it to this year's TOAM conference, I will once again be live-blogging it right here. It's still not too late to arrange to listen to one of Mark Driscoll's other speaking engagements in the UK.


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Adrian
Hi everyone. This is Adrian Warnock here again. I’m here at Together on a Mission, together with John Lanferman. John leads the work of Newfrontiers in the USA. I would like to ask him a little bit about the conference, and also his work overseas, because I’m aware that a lot of you are probably thinking, “Well, this Newfrontiers thing—it’s all well and good because it’s over in the UK” — where things are perhaps a little bit different. So, John, first of all, how are you enjoying the conference?

John
I think it’s magnificent. The preaching has been outstanding. The worship is amazing. God’s presence is here. He is speaking personally to people. He’s speaking to us as a family of churches as well. It’s wonderful to welcome 53 different nations into this setting.

Adrian
Yes, I think it’s so important to underline that, isn’t it, because people probably think, “Oh, it’s just a British thing,” when really it’s almost like a world conference, isn’t it?

John
Absolutely, it is. And just to make connection with people and find out what’s happening in their nations, and to see that we’re really on the same page as it relates to the kingdom of God. There’s not really a national distinction there when it comes to that.

Adrian
Yeah, I know. It’s been great. Some of the preachers have come from South Africa and . . .

John
Absolutely.

Adrian
You’ve got guys from Africa, other parts, all over, haven’t we here?

John
Yes, it’s wonderful.

Adrian
I guess really as well, this conference is perhaps a little bit different to some other conferences, isn’t it, in terms of the family feel. I don’t know how easily we can get that across to people who are at home reading the blog.

John
I think that’s the interesting thing. When you come together and you see people, and some of the people, of course, we know as well. But even in meeting new people, there’s a sense of community that seems to be automatic, and it’s just great to see people mixing it up, enjoying each other.

Adrian
Yeah, I think that’s right, because that doesn’t happen everywhere we go in conferences, does it?

John
No, I know some conferences that you may visit, and some I’ve visited in the US — I mean, you arrive. If you don’t know anyone or if you have a friend or two, you’re really not connected. There’s not a sense of togetherness on the mission . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
. . . and you break off, you go to lunch, or you go to your hotel room. There’s a sense of — you’re there to pick up information primarily and download information that maybe you can employ in your own situation.

Adrian
Yeah.

John
But here it’s a totally different feel.

Adrian
That’s right. And there’s all these kind of little mini-meetings going on in all the breaks, isn’t there? I mean, the little breaks sort of get eaten up, don’t they?

John
All the time.

Adrian
(Laughing). And we’re sitting here and we’ve got what? I don’t know—another hour or so?—before the next session. And you squeeze in a meeting, don’t you?

John
That’s right, you do.

Adrian
But it’s good fun.

John
So it’s a pleasure, I think, as well, the in-between meeting times to connect relationally, talk to each other, find out what’s going on. It’s all part of the whole package.

Adrian
Yeah, exactly. John, I particularly wanted to chat with you because you head up the work of Newfrontiers in the USA, and so many of my readers are from that nation. So, are there many other Americans here at the conference?

John
Yes, there are several actually. We have four of our own local elders from St. Louis who are here, and some of our other staff members as well. But besides that, across the nation, we have representatives who lead churches that are here with us.

Adrian
So are there many Newfrontiers churches in the US?

John
Actually, there’s not at the time. We now have 23 churches in ten different states, but it was just a few years ago, like ten years ago, we had 7 churches in one state . . .

Adrian
Right.

John
. . . so these were churches that already had a history. Terry [Virgo] came over and spent a couple of years and left. It was in that setting, then, that we began to actually formulate who we were together, come together with a real sense of mission. We have churches that have a history, and we’ve been drawn together around Terry, and around the mission there, but obviously there are residual issues, so I think in the first few years there was a need for us to really come together to construct that all through, which we did, of course, and now we’re planting churches all across the nation.

Adrian
Okay, excellent. How do you decide where to go and plant a church?

John
I have, on my laptop, 100 cities, and I won’t be content until the top 100 cities in the U.S.—87 per cent of the nation’s population reside in these cities—so, one by one, we want to tick off these cities. When Newfrontiers started in the US, we were primarily a rural movement. We didn’t have any churches in any major cities. So, first of all, to come together around a mission and then begin to train leaders and set up training programs, to begin to envision people, and then see people move from the rural settings—although we’re very, very grateful; we’re still planting the rural settings—begin to make that big step into city centers. Kansas City was our first church plant; St. Louis (the one I led) was our second plant, and now we are in seven major cities. We’re in Seattle-Tacoma. We’re in Boston. We’re in Chicago. We’re in Nashville. We’re in Atlanta. We’re planting churches one by one into these major city centers, and we want these churches to become reproducing centers, so out from them churches are planted. So we have a fairly ambitious vision.

Adrian
Yeah, it sounds like it. So, what is it about a Newfrontiers church that is, say, different to other churches in the grand? Because I know some people might say, “Well, why bother planting churches? Surely we should just strengthen the ones that are there already.”

John
I think the thing that really draws us together is our sense of mission. Now there are other things, of course, that draw us together. Our very real value of Word and Spirit. We’re an interesting group because, in the US, you have evangelicals and people from various denominational persuasions. You have people who are charismatics. We’re a bit different because we are evangelical in that we are rooted in historic Christian faith. Most of our people would have a reformed theological perception. But we have a charismatic experience. And that’s quite unusual in the US. I think it sets us a bit apart from most other groups—not that there aren’t others that way—but it makes us different, I think, from what you would normally find in the US.

Adrian
Yeah. I sometimes have people writing to me, saying, “Is there a church like that in this place or in that place?” And I often wonder what other groups are there out there that are similar to Newfrontiers in some way. Are there other groups?

John
I would say Sovereign Grace would be similar to us. We’ve had good fellowship with that group. But there’s an interesting phenomenon that’s happening as well because in mainline evangelical circles, people that would have name recognition—guys like John Piper or Mark Driscoll—are, of course, well established in orthodox faith, but as well, are very open to and accepting and believing in certain charismatic expressions. So, it’s an interesting move that’s happening in the US in that regard.

Adrian
Yeah. So there’s a kind of—like what you’re saying—a coming together of the Word and the Spirit in a way.

John
I believe that’s exactly true. We do have other things. It’s a big country. The Christian television market, religious television market, and radio waves are fairly dominated by charismatics that would have a very experiential and often times a man-centered approach . . .

Adrian
Right.

John
. . . rather than a God-centered approach, which of course, is not helpful to be labeled in that particular camp because our root is indeed orthodox evangelical Christianity with a charismatic experience and expression.

Continued in part 2 . . .

I recently posted what I trust will be a series which will be about sermons that have changed my life. It is way too early for me to claim that this past Sunday's talk by my pastor and dear friend, Tope Koleoso, will be one of those. But I could do a lot worse than allow myself to be shaped by a talk like this. I have previously shared a list of talks Tope has given that are available online, but much as I loved those talks, I believe this may be the best sermon I have ever heard him preach.

I don't want to give too much away because I want to encourage you to listen to this talk. He weaved such well-remembered verses as "Go into all the world ...", "I am not ashamed of the gospel ..." "How will they hear ..." and "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few ..." into a compelling tapestry that felt fresh and deeply impacting without condemning. He acknowledged that it IS easier to mix with people who are in your own "tribe"— your Judea as it were.

He challenged us that if we are not going beyond that, if all our friends are still very similar to us, we haven't yet allowed the gospel to have its full impact on us. He laid down the challenge that the gospel has two calls to it. There is a call to come, to receive from God. But then there is a call to go. In that going we are called to worship God and to be a witness. He spoke of our mission to reach the world one person at a time. He also spoke of our message. He explained that our message was nothing more complicated than a person—Jesus. We are to teach his cross, his resurrection, the call to repentance, and a promise of forgiveness. Still, today some demand signs and wonders, and others clever reasoning and wisdom, but we preach Jesus and him crucified. Tope also spoke of our methods and our motivation of love. My favorite line in the whole talk was, "If you want Jesus to go with you, go and make disciples."

I was profoundly moved by this talk. What was also exciting is that, once again this Sunday, a number of people made a response to the gospel. We are in the middle of a prolonged season where we have been seeing such responses on a weekly basis. Please pray for us that such things continue, and that as a church this sermon may indeed help to turn our focus outward and that we will see many more genuinely saved. The message is available to download or listen to here:

Today I wrap up my interview with John Piper in this last segment. It is based on the video version of the interview, which can be viewed here. John talks about preachers he listens to and describes the circumtances which led him to the pastorate of Bethlehem Baptist Church. The three previous parts to the interview can be read at the following pages:

• John Piper on New Word Alive
  
  
• John Piper on Passionate Preaching
  
  
• John Piper on Prayer and Bible Study

Adrian
We have just been talking about studying the Word, and obviously books, but I guess for most preachers, they like to listen to other preachers as well. I guess you’re probably no exception to that. So who have you got on your iPOD that you’re actually listening to?

John
I do have an iPOD. It happens to sit in my speaker base in my bedroom as kind of an alarm clock. But my computer is in my study, and my treadmill is in my study. That’s the only time I ever listen to preaching—when I’m running. So three times a week, for thirty minutes or so, I’m listening to other people speak. So I download them from the Web, usually. Who are the last ones I listened to? I listened to [Don] Carson. I listened to R. C. Sproul. I listened to Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Somebody gave me the whole series of MLJ on Romans. I listen to C. J. Mahaney. I listen to John Sailhammer on the Old Testament. I listen to Carl Trueman on, what’s the topic? I can’t remember. A little while back. Basically, I’m looking for two things—one, contemporary relevant issues that I might want to dig into, or model preaching. So, whoever at that point, and they’re not always the same people, the model preachers and the ones who are talking about the things I feel like I need to get to know about.

Adrian
Okay. You’re obviously deeply committed to preaching and to pastoring, and you’ve been at Bethlehem an awful long time. I wonder, first of all, how did you make that decision to join Bethlehem, and was it a lifetime commitment at that moment, or was that something that evolved? How did it then develop into a long-term thing?

John
I was teaching Bible and Greek for six years at Bethel College from 1974 to 1980. I had a sabbatical and I was working on Romans 9—the book on justification of God—the odyssey basically, Romans 9. And while I was doing that, the Lord, I believe, just kept saying through the words of that chapter, “I will be proclaimed and not just analyzed.” And I couldn’t resist it after awhile. Finally, I began to ask those who knew me best, “What would you think if I left academia and took the pastorate as a preaching pastor?” And they all said, “Do it.” So, in December of 1979, I gave my resignation and started looking for a church. I said, “I’d like to spend ten years here.” Well, they said, “Ten years would be good.” And ten years went by like that. And now it’s twenty-eight. And I have no intention of going anywhere else until I’m done.

Adrian
Do you think that kind of longevity is important for a pastor?

John
It’s important, at least in volatile urban settings. In other words, where there’s a lot of change in the people, there needs to be less change in the pastoral ministry. Where the people are stable, say in a small town that has very little coming and going, the stability lies very much in the people. In an urban setting of growth, with a lot of people in and a lot of people out, there’s no stability in the people. And if it isn’t in the staff and elders, then it’s not going to be anywhere. So the degree to which there is movement among the people, it seems to me to be good. And I think it’s healthy for the pastor himself to press on in preaching in a way that doesn’t redo the same stuff over and over again. I mean, after the first five years I thought to myself, “I would not want to do this anywhere again.” I mean, those first five years are hard. You’re figuring out everything; you’re rebuilding everything. You’re trying to make some changes. And to start all that over again instead of building on it would have felt very discouraging to me.

Adrian
So for you the pull of the church was a stronger pull than the pull of Bible college or seminary?

John
Yes, oh yes. And the reason in that day was because, in the college, I felt like, year in and year out, I had the same age group (18-22). They were culturally basically the same. Their questions were, every year, the same. They always revolved around Calvinism and free will and sovereignty, and whatever. And in the church you’ve got cradle to the grave. You’ve got ethnic and cultural differences. You’ve got people all over the spiritual map on their questions. You’ve got dying and birth. You’ve got weddings and funerals. The reality of the totality of life—what that said to me was — “If this is real, if this Book is real, it will relate to all of that instead of this little slice of humanity that comes to college.” And I just wanted to see the Word of God take root in a people.

Adrian
That’s really interesting. Would you say, then, that part of your development as a pastor and as preacher is just being there in the long-term and seeing that kind of development?

John
Absolutely. I had probably preached fifteen times in my life when I came to this church. I was 34 years old and I was a teacher. I taught Sunday School. I didn’t preach around. Most of my colleagues preached on the weekend in addition to teaching. I said, “I’m not going to do that. I’m going to be with my family in church, sitting with my children at my side and my wife, listening to the Word of God every weekend, and I’ll teach a Sunday School class.” So I had done a few weddings, and I had done a few little sermons here and there. But I was an absolute green preacher when I came to Bethlehem. So all of my development as a preacher has been through these 28 years in the same pulpit.

Adrian
Okay. So, you’re a busy guy because you’re a preacher there, you preach regularly. You go to all these conferences. And I’ve noticed you almost always bring, if not a completely brand new message, at least a newly reworked version of it, perhaps slightly different . . . How do you manage to find all that time? Or is it just that you prioritize that and don’t watch too much TV?

John
I don’t watch any television. I don’t have a television.

Adrian
That’s what it is probably.

John
That certainly helps. And I have a wonderful wife who tolerates a very absent husband, even when I’m home. I ask her—I’m always taking her temperature as we do our dates on Mondays and go out. “How we doing, Noel? Do you want to make any changes?” She’s just so incredibly flexible that I married the right woman. And ever since we’ve been married, I’ve always worked, both in the day and in the evening. I’ve raised four sons, and now I’m working on one daughter. And they’re all married, and they have sons, and they’re following the Lord. So I feel some deep, deep gratification about that. But I always took from 5:30 to 7:00, and that was their time. I ate with them and then we had play time. We were kicking the ball around in the backyard or we were building towers and knocking ‘em down — this is your time. And I went to all their ballgames. A pastor has his own time. He can do whatever he wants. So 3:30 in the afternoon, while other guys are working, I’m banging my fists at the soccer match, or you’d call it football, to make my son, Benjamin, run faster . . .

Adrian
You played soccer?

John
I didn’t — I watched it.

Adrian
But, no, still, I mean . . .

John
Oh, I love it. We try, we try! (Laughing.)

Adrian
You have David Beckham now, of course.

John
Well, he did score a goal the other day. I think it was headlines. One goal out of this billion dollar deal. So . . . where were we?

Adrian
We were talking about football playing . . . you were just talking about all the time . . . .

John
Oh, the time to do things, yeah. The point was that even though I work in the evenings (at 7:00 I’m back in my study or with a book in my hand or at some meeting) and Noel is doing her handwork, or working on her projects, and I’m working away. But, really, the key is — I’ve been in the church long enough that they let me do what I want to do. And we’ve got such diversification staffing, that I’m the preacher guy. They want me to feed this flock on the weekend, and they want me to provide vision for the staff. That’s my title — Pastor of Preaching and Vision. I’m here in Wales, and I’ll be back to preach next Sunday, and most of them won’t even know I was gone.

Adrian
Yeah, sure. You write books. What would be the three books that you’ve written that would be your most important books, in your opinion? Three most important books you’ve written, or three significant . . .

John
I will be interested to watch from heaven to see what the answer to that question will prove to be, because I don’t think my answer really has any authority. I don’t know. Don Carson told me he thought Pleasures of God was the most important thing I’ve done, so I think I would put that in the top three. I’m going to put Desiring God there just because it’s the seminal book from which everything else flowed. And after those two, God’s Passion for His Glory maybe. That’s my [Jonathan] Edwards—Edwards is half of that and I’m half of that. And because Edwards is so important, and that essay, The End for Which God Created the World, is so absolutely foundational to everything I do and what I think, that may be the other one.

Adrian
Great. Well look, thanks very much for joining us, John. It’s just been wonderful to have a few moments here just to pick your brains . . .

John
Yeah. I wish we had more time. Thank you very much!

Adrian
God bless.

I'd like to introduce you to the latest addition to my Logos library — The Collected Works of John M. Frame, Volume 1, Theology. For me, the more books I have in my library the better since it increasingly means that I can do all my Bible study without ever opening a book.

Thanks to the fantastic resources of the base collections (available with a 25 per cent discount if you order via my link) and the many commentaries and other books I have collected over they years, I am able to simply open Logos, type a Bible reference into the passage guide search box, and hit "Go." A wealth of material is returned that helps me after I have done my own work on a passage.

I have customized my results page so that important groups of resources are searched and I can identify what Piper, Lloyd-Jones, and others have to say on a particular verse. Now, of course, Frame will be added to that list.

If you have a growing Logos library you will find Frame's works fit into it nicely. If you don't yet own Logos, this is a great place to start. It should be stressed that the DVD will work just fine without any other Logos software, and can therefore be the foundation of what I suspect may become a growing library.

You may not have heard of John M. Frame, but he comes highly recommended. For example, Wayne Grudem says of one of these books that it is

"A magnificent treatment that will be a standard work for decades. Frame stands in the great Reformed tradition of Calvin and Charnock, Hodge and Bavinck, yet in his treatment of the doctrine of God he surpasses them all with an amazing breadth of knowledge and depth of understanding. In every section, Frame brings fresh insight to old doctrines."

Wayne Grudem
Research Professor, Bible and Theology
Phoenix Seminary

Full details of the amazing collection of books that are available can be found on this Bits and Bytes website page. As always with Logos, when considering the price it is vital to remember that the cost in paper form would be much higher. But I hope you will be pleasantly surprised by the introductory price.

Yesterday, in the second part of my interview with John Piper, he talked about passionate preaching. Today, John talks about prayer and Bible study, and in particular, his personal "rhythm" for this important discipline. The video of this part of the interview can be seen here.


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Adrian
So, what you’ve described — I suspect there may be many preachers out there saying, “Okay, I get what you’re saying, but how do I get to that place?” You mentioned prayer. I know prayer is important to you. You often talk about prayer in your books. Could you talk a little bit about what your own prayer life looks like? How you get, if you like, connected to God in that way you’re describing?

John
I’ll try without disobeying the Lord’s injunction in the Sermon on the Mount to go into your closet . . .

Adrian
Yeah . . .

John
I surely am not a model to hold up for prayer because I have models and I fall short of them. But, my life is a combination of private prayer, family prayer, corporate prayer at church—it’s a rhythm of those things. I try to be with the Lord every morning for an hour or so. The way it works for me is mingling together Word and prayer. I don’t read the Bible for twenty minutes and pray for twenty minutes, or forty and forty, whatever. It’s in and out and in and out. I learned that basically from George Mueller, who said he made the big mistake in his early Christian life of trying to pray for an extended period of time, and his mind inevitably went everywhere except toward the Lord, so he began by whispering up a one minute prayer for help, and then he took the Word and turned everything he’d read into prayer. He said I laid sixty things before the Lord this morning, and I laid them through the Word. And that’s pretty much the way I go about it.

When it comes to praying for things, besides what’s in the text, I pray in concentric circles. The most needy person I know is me. Therefore I pray about me first, because if I can’t be fixed, I won’t fix anybody. I won’t bless my wife or children or the Church. So I pray about this soul and my passion for God here, and then I move out to my wife and my children. I pray for them about whatever was in the text. Then I move out to my elders and my staff, and I name all the staff every day and our elders. And then I move out to the church, and move out to the city, and the nations. That’s the way I pray. And that can fill up a lot of time as God brings different things. I use helps. I have lists. I have lists of the names because I can’t even remember the names of 34 elders sometimes, and I have to say those. And then I use things like Operation World to pray for the nations. I keep it on my computer. I keep it in the book beside my old prayer bench at home.

By the way, I have a place of prayer. In my study there’s a little corner with a built wall, like this—it’s got a bench, it’s got books, it’s got a Bible. So I can kneel, it’s got a little rug. In 1975, so it’s now thirty-two years ago, I realized when I finished graduate school and owned my first home that this home should have a prayer place in it because otherwise, I think if you don’t have a place that’s designated that’s relatively secure, you tend to kind of sit on the couch, cross your legs, put some coffee beside you, and go to sleep, and call it prayer time. You don’t tend to do that if you have a place that’s just set aside for prayer.

Then there’s the family—my wife and I and my daughter—pray and have devotions in the morning. And then we do it in the evening. And then my wife and I pray before we go to bed at night, and read a little devotional called “Daily Life.” So that’s the rhythm—morning, evening, wife.

And then there are eight prayer meetings at our church, and I go to four of them plus the staff prayer meeting. They are thirty minute prayer meetings. That’s all they all. We don’t talk at all. We just sit down—bang! We start praying, and bang! Thirty minutes later we stop and go our separate ways. It’s very . . . and that way they last. I’ve been to one of these prayer meetings for probably over twenty years. The Friday morning 6:30 prayer meeting has been going on for twenty years and I hardly ever miss it, except when I’m on vacation, and there’s absolutely zero conversation, zero nonsense. It’s just you’re there; it’s 6:30, let us pray! It’s 7:00—bang! We’re done! Everybody disappears. And it’s really precious! It’s powerful!

So, those are my rhythms, personal, family, corporate, and lots of others sprinkled in. Paul said, “Pray without ceasing,” so I’m always crying for help. So, “Right now, Lord, help me in this interview!”

Adrian
(Laughing) Yeah! You and me both! So, you pray. Obviously you study the Word. And I suspect most of what you do is fairly standard on that. But do you have any particular hints about how to study the Bible that would help people maybe?

John
H-m-m-m. I’m not a good example there either. My life has kind of been taken out of my control in the last years. I feel like I’m governed by what other people want from me, pretty much, than what I want to do sometimes.

A combination of three things, I would think, is what a pastor would want. One is general reading. And there—what can you say? There’s a billion things to read. You let your own heart and good recommenders, good bloggers, tell you what’s good. And then you don’t waste your time reading what’s bad. Somebody else better read it first. Don’t read it first. And probably you should read something that’s 200 years old, 300 years old, because the new stuff is here today and gone tomorrow by and large. So READING.

Secondly, some more or less systematic way of growing in your knowledge of Scripture. The Bible says, “Grow in the knowledge of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,” so some regular reading and rigorous effort to broaden your understanding of the scope of Scripture.

The third is preparation for what you do. That’s where most of my effort is right now. I languish in the other two and I flourish here. I don’t begrudge myself that too much because what I have found (and this might be encouraging to any of the younger guys pondering what they’re going to do with their lives)—when I left academia—six years of teaching Bible college to do pastoral ministry, I thought, “I’m giving up all my summers (teachers have all their summers to study and write), I’m giving up a small amount of teaching and a large amount of writing opportunities—I’m giving that up for a life of pressure, and administration, and crises, and crunch, and just normal pastoral labors, so will I languish in my ability to see Scripture?”

Continued in part 4 . . .

Yesterday we began sharing the transcript of my interview with John Piper at New Word Alive. Today we continue with John Piper talking about passionate preaching. The video of today's segment can be seen here.

Adrian
People do talk about you, John, as having a real sort of passion about you. It’s almost like a zeal, I guess. In fact, particularly when you’re preaching, I certainly experience that, having actually only heard you for the first time in the flesh last night, and so many people afterwards were saying the same thing. I was just blown away by the passion, and also by a sense of the presence of God that you brought when you were preaching. I guess that’s probably the best way of describing it. Is that something that you’re aware of in some way for yourself? Is that something you can explain a bit as to why you feel that other people experience that? Is it something you feel yourself when you’re preaching as well? How did that come about? Because I know, for example, that Lig Duncan said that when he heard you preach at Together for the Gospel, he felt, “Boy, I’ve never preached before. I’ve never done it.” So what is it about you? Is there something special about you? Do you have some kind of secret you can share with the rest of us?

John
I don’t usually feel that way when I’m done preaching, okay? I talked to Don Carson one time, and I regard Don as a very effective communicator and a brilliant person. He mentioned to me that he regularly walks away from his events feeling that he’s blown it, which made me feel better, because I don’t think you can ever quite know what God’s doing. At the times that I have felt bleakest about the way I did what I was supposed to do, others have testified to being helped. And the times I felt liberated, free, engaged — Did anything happen in them rather than just in me? So, I’m very suspicious about the way I feel about my preaching. I doubt myself regularly that my assessment of what just happened is accurate. Which helps me and hurts me. It means I never feel very excited about what I’ve just done, and it means I don’t fall out the bottom because I say, “Well, God can do what he wants to do. You know, Balaam’s ass can accomplish what he wants, so he might use that, even though I felt terrible about it. So I’m a lousy judge when it comes to saying, “Was there a presence of God, or was there an anointing, or was there an effect?”

I just know that what I want is the gift of self-forgetfulness in what I would call a full engagement, a full passion, a full zeal with what’s there in the text, and the reality of God in and through the text. I want to see him, and know him, be engaged by him, be thrilled by him, say it with whatever effectiveness I can, and let the chips fall where they will. And that, as far as my own subjective awareness goes, that rises and falls. One Sunday I feel thrilled. I feel met. I feel carried. I feel helped. And others I don’t. But that doesn’t correlate necessarily with what God is doing in the people out there. So, to me, an effective, experienced sermon would be when I forget myself. I’m not thinking, “Oh, I’m doing well here,” or “I’m doing badly here,” or “That was an effective comment,” — anything like that ruins it for me. The gift is when you’re not outside yourself watching yourself. You’re so here—you’re so here that you’re not at all conscious—there’s no two of you, there’s just one of you, and God and the people, and a transaction is happening that’s a miracle. Because you can’t choose to forget yourself. The act of choosing to forget yourself is self-awareness. So it’s a gift. It’s a phenomenal precious gift in the moment. You pray for it ahead of time, and it may come for twenty minutes and then you lose it for ten, and you’re thinking about your hands, and you’re thinking about your notes, and you’re thinking about the faces out there, and it’s all discombobulated, and then it may be taken away in the moment, and you’re free to . . . you go, and you wake up ten minutes later and — What was THAT? You know? That was free!! So that’s what I’m after.

I think there are ways to cultivate what I’m talking about. It basically is cultivating God-centeredness. It’s cultivating prayer. It’s cultivating a serious engagement with the Word. It’s cultivating asking certain kinds of God-centered, Christ-exalting questions. There’s a focus and a preoccupation. And then my root Christian hedonism, I mean, my root philosophy of life — whether you are satisfied in God really does make a difference as to whether you can glorify God! That’s a huge thing! It’s a theoretical construct that I think is in the Bible, but it has a practical effect because I really believe that if you’re not passionate about God, you won’t glorify him as much. If you’re more passionate about football than God, you glorify football. If you’re more passionate about food or cooking or sex or money or work or the stock market than you are about God, then that’s what gets glorified. God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. That construct of reality has an effect on how you pray about your life and how you live you life.

Continued in part 3 . . .

Yesterday was Friday and therefore it was the day that we usually turn to Piper. I have not forgotten that tradition, nor, incidentally, have I forgotten Lloyd-Jones Monday—it's just that there has been a lot of other material to get out there, and I haven't wanted to do more than a post a day at the moment.

I actually have another project which I'm currently working on, and which I plan on telling you about in a few weeks or so. Believe it or not, thanks to spending some time planning and writing ahead, and also to the efforts of my transcriptionist and editor, Annette, this past few weeks have actually been quite light blogging work for me. Please pray for me that God would grant me unusual grace, inspiration, and self-discipline at this time.

Anyway, today I thought we would share the transcript of the first video segment from my New Word Alive interview with John Piper. The video can be seen at Piper on New Word Alive and Spring Harvest.


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Adrian
Hi! My name is Adrian Warnock and I’m here with John Piper. We’re here at New Word Alive. I can’t say the name of the town [Pwllheli], but it’s in North Wales in the UK, about six hours away from London. John has very kindly agreed to be interviewed here. But he’s also specifically asked that we would pray together before we start. So, John, let’s just share a word of prayer, shall we?

John
Father, we lean on you for words that would come to our mind that might be helpful or useful to other folks. So, for the sake of your name and for the good of others, we ask that you would cause us not to go down any rabbit trails that would be unhelpful, to waste our time, or spin our wheels. And we ask that you would guard us from error or pride or anything that would be dishonoring to Jesus or harmful to the Church. And so draw us into a conversation that will be edifying, I pray, and an honor to the Lord Jesus. We ask this is his name. Amen.

Adrian
Amen. Well, thanks for joining us, John.

John
My pleasure.

Adrian
Really, the whole purpose of these interviews is to try and get a bit of a glimpse of the man behind the preacher, as it were. So just to start with, I’d love to know how you came to the decision to be here. There seems to be a lot of you Americans coming over here—you’re here, Don Carson is here in the UK today at this conference as well, and later in the year Mark Driscoll’s going to be at a conference in Brighton [as well as some meetings in London]. Why do you guys keep coming?

John
There’s a narrow and a broader answer to that. Let’s go from the broader to the narrow. The broader answer would be—when I was here doing my sabbatical at Tyndale House in Cambridge, I got to know the folks who did the book, Pierced for Our Transgressions.

Adrian
Oh, yes!

John
They asked me to do the forward for it. And that got us into a conversation about the larger evangelical situation in Britain, and for whatever reason, I found myself very very akin to their cause in upholding the penal substitution of Christ—his work on the cross in our place as precious beyond words. I don’t know why, but they thought that my support would be helpful. Why that is—I’m just an ordinary American pastor and nobody over here knows me, I thought—so what’s the deal with doing the forward for this book or whatever? And I discovered that evidently my voice has (and this is ironic to say it here) I thought it had, up to this point, a kind of unifying effect because I’m contaminated with charismatic influence . . .

Adrian
(Laughing) I like that . . . !!

John
. . . and I’m reformed to the core—like I say I’m a seven-point Calvinist—that sort of thing. And so that’s an unusual combination. So I’ve been to the Leister Conference with the Banner of Truth books, I’ve been to the Brighton Conference with what, Newfrontiers?

Adrian
Yes, that’s right.

John
And I’ve been to FIEC, and I’ve been here now, and that seems to be broad. So evidently my role is to function as a kind of voice that can attract a broad array of evangelicals. [Ed: Piper has also spoken for the Proclamation Trust and other UCCF events.]

So that’s the bigger reason. I like serving that purpose, so if I can serve that purpose, I’ll come over. I didn’t know that, but I’m told that, and I’m pleased to help draw exegetically serious, Bible, gospel people, whether charismatic or not, together. I think that’s a wonderful calling. So that’s one.

The narrow one is that this event was born out of a tension at Spring Harvest over the whole issue of the nature of the atonement, and I think the place that this conference, New Word Alive, came down on—what Christ achieved for us and how he achieved it in bearing God’s wrath, absorbing it fully, removing it, propitiating it. That historic, traditional vision of what Christ did is exactly right and precious. So, when I was asked, “Would you come help us get this started?”—that question wouldn’t have made any sense to me without the broader piece, but given what I was being told about my voice, I thought, “Well, okay. If you think I can help, I’ll be happy to help, because I believe in the cause.” So those two things coming together—the broader function of my voice kind of spanning certain tensions in Britain, and this issue in particular—made this a very attractive event to me.

Adrian
Okay. Well, it’s been great to have you. What’s your impression of the event as a speaker, and also as a participant?

John
Well, I’ve only spoken once, and then I’ve attended one thing ahead of time, too. The responsiveness of the folks has been positive. Now I have to measure my words because British folks (laughter) are less responsive than what I’m used to!!

Adrian
Are you talking about the stiff upper lip here?

John
I don’t know what I’m . . . I don’t know what it is, but I mean, I’m looking around in here during that kind of worship and I’m expecting a great deal more engagement than I’m getting, so I just kind of adjust my expectations to the kind of human being I’m dealing with (Adrian laughing), and if I’m at a more, you know, lively place, I’ll expect that. Here I’m pleased to settle in with my expectations kind of in the middle, and it’s been good!

Adrian
I think it’s partly a cultural thing.

John
Oh, it’s absolutely cultural, there’s no doubt that it’s cultural. That’s what it is!

Adrian
Yeah, because I guess some people are more or less expressive in worship based on who they are.

John
Exactly. It’s partly genetic, partly cultural, partly religious and convictional.

Adrian
Yeah, yeah.

John
So those three factors together make you who you are. We’ll all that way.

Continued in part 2 . . .